Curse

Kattar · Jan 21, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Don't post names, snippets of code, or anything else. Really, there's not much need to post evidence since ANet knows about it. If you'd like, send them an email with screens, names, etc.

Other than that, we can't allow names of any bots or websites related to them on this forum. It's a delicate matter and we're trying to handle it as delicately as possible.

Fril Estelin · Jan 21, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Great job Katsumi, you acted very responsibly. But I'm afraid that opening this kind of door will inevitably bring some "wind" from the outside to the inside anyway, and this wind stinks.

lishi · Jan 21, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Agreed wholeheartedly. Although I don't know that it's as widespread as some would think.

Yeah. Seems like it would a major redesign of several major features like the game client, packet transmission, etc.

Well, they could assign 1 guy who a day of week take a day off from what usually do.

Pick a suspect match, check the log, confirm the botting, ban the account. Ban the guild.

Analyse the info of the account, logs, support ticket, credit card info, IP log address etc. find all the other account connected to the same person and ban them too.

It might lead to some error(nothing who cannot be fixed), but eventually if one seriously risk to lose all what he have on guildwars and not just one of the multiple account he don't care for...

gone · Jan 21, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Great job Katsumi, you acted very responsibly. But I'm afraid that opening this kind of door will inevitably bring some "wind" from the outside to the inside anyway, and this wind stinks.

That's why you open windows and air things out.

Martin Alvito · Jan 21, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

[/DISCLAIMERON]I mean that, contrarily to Martin's assomptions, a lot of human and skill based defense against those kind of bots just fail badly.

But not all.

Example: A friend of mine used to monk top 50 for a year or so. One match of his that I obsed had a Mesmer hero with 7 interrupts on the bar locked onto him. He couldn't cast anything. They wiped twice.

Then they got smart, and realized that if they ran the Mesmer hero around the map they could die less. They split and ultimately won the match.

You aren't thinking. What I'm saying is that other people obviously must be, if they have been winning mATs in an environment where bots exist. So the proper response to the problem in the near term (until ANet gets around to responding) is to figure out how to beat the things.

@ Borat: I don't have to play to be able to think, y'dig? If I were trying to Build Wars the bot, there are a few things that I would try. I'm not sure that there are enough cheap, low recharge spells that would interfere with the bot's ability to function these days, but that's where I would start. If I can force the bot to counter a specific player's spells, the bot won't have interrupts available for the Monk and my team will live. It's obviously the largest threat on the opposing team, so it's worth burning a character slot to disable it. Your botting opponent is obviously relying on the bot to generate kills. Take that away, and they're going to start to suck.

Another thing I'd try is this: another defensive character, and a generally more defensive build. If an interrupt bot can prevent a single healer from casting, but that's all it's good for, then adding another Monk negates the advantage. You pay a price for that (you're not going to kill anything) and it reduces the game to just gaming the tiebreaker, which is lame, but if it wins it wins.

Neither is an ideal solution; the rest of your team is going to have to be that much better than theirs in order to win. But it's the best you can do under the circumstances until ANet gets around to fixing the problem.

If teams are running a single bot, I would split it if the map makes that possible. I wouldn't want to stand and fight it if I could avoid it, and I'd want it to be in a situation where the opposing team has to crack two defensive characters with reduced damage wherever the bot is. If teams are taking multiple interrupt bots, then splitting isn't going to improve on the 8 man outcome and is futile.

You aren't giving any indication that you are trying novel strategies. But that's what smurfs are for. If we're beating cheaters in formats with a level playing field (where in principle cheats would be most decisive), it should follow that they can be beaten in formats where you have more strategic options available to you. The fact that legit teams have been winning mATs seems to confirm this, unless you want to claim that recent mAT winners have also been botting.

You aren't admitting to yourself that other players might just be better than you, or at least better at coping with this sort of problem. I'm not denying that the botting is a problem. I'm saying that the evidence suggests it isn't the biggest one. If you think about it, the fundamental issue here is that technical perfection with interrupts confers too large an advantage. The botters are just exploiting that. There are too many high quality, low cost, low recharge interrupts right now.

This is why getting the skills right is so important.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 21, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I'm voting that this thread be closed (again?), because:

There has been no proof set forth that a bot for RBR exists.
Would there be solid proof, rules against posting links to it or names of its users seem to be prohibited on these forums and enforced fairly well, so such proof can't really be used here anyways.
The thread has started to go back to the topic of Snowball bots, which we have already discussed in the past and such threads have since been closed for various reasons or have died.
ANet has already acknowledged the existence of bots.
ANet knows where to find some of these bots.
The thread is saturated with posts that make absolutely no attempt to describe how ANet can better handle this situation, and rather with viewpoints that ANet either should or should not be taking action against bots at this time.
"My opinion > your opinion" arguments are not going to take this thread anywhere.

gone · Jan 21, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I'm voting that this thread be closed (again?), because:

There has been no proof set forth that a bot for RBR exists.
Would there be solid proof, rules against posting links to it or names of its users seem to be prohibited on these forums and enforced fairly well, so such proof can't really be used here anyways.
The thread has started to go back to the topic of Snowball bots, which we have already discussed in the past and such threads have since been closed for various reasons or have died.
ANet has already acknowledged the existence of bots.
ANet knows where to find some of these bots.
The thread is saturated with posts that make absolutely no attempt to describe how ANet can better handle this situation, and rather with viewpoints that ANet either should or should not be taking action against bots at this time.
"My opinion > your opinion" arguments are not going to take this thread anywhere.

Vetoed you're late. a very functional RBR "bot" can be made.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 21, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

Vetoed you're late. a very functional RBR "bot" can be made.

Unless you can suggest to us what ANet can do about it, it doesn't matter here whether the bot exists or not. There's no constructive discussion to come out of it otherwise, so having a thread about it is pointless.

Polgara Val · Jan 21, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I do agree that a bot can be made to play in RBR but a competitive bot is an entirely different matter all together.

I just cant see it happening to be honest, most if not all the top 100 RBR players just use common sense and know the tricks of the track and have a nack for it. So in short a bot can be made but would be the point if it cant get you were you need to go, it really is an improbable task to create such a thing and the time dedicated towards making it makes me shudder.

Considering the events which have RBR during the year there is almost hardly anytime to do any constructive research.

Pol

Edit; I also agree that Snowball Arena bots has been spoken about in to many other threads so theres no real need to keep harping on about it. Focus on the "possibility" of an RBR bot.

pumpkin pie · Jan 21, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I vote for ArenaNet to monitor the Roller Beetle Race!

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I find it funny how you're trying to get it locked Shayne, as you are ALSO one of the people in question. You play with Yuri, in dutch we have a nice expression: "Wiens brood men eet, diens woord men spreekt", and translated it means: "Who's bread one eats, who's word one speaks".

I understand your view on this might be different, but trying to get this thread locked is only making yourself look more suspicious. (On top of that fact you're also in the botting guild, AND play with known botters)

@ Martin:

Hlarious how you say: "They ran around the map a bit, and died less, and won". Ow gee, That would work, because, you know, everyone knows interupt bots stop interrupting when you're running around the map... Aside from the fact that that made NO sense, WHAT are you trying to say here?

That if you split a interrupt bot, he stops being effective? How is that so? If anything, if you split them you're always going to need 1 healer on each side (Unless you wanna risk loosing your split), and that interrupt bot can fully shut one healer down...

And if you so ensist on splitting them, who says they can't split back proporly aswell? You're intire arguement is based on the fact the botting guild can't split for sh..t, but why does this have to be true?
You are, once again, taking flawed examples, as you ASSUME the botting guild can't split. Yet, in reality, if 2 equally matched guilds, with an equally matched build (Except for the mesmers then offcourse), the botting guild can split just as well as the non botting guild. With the different that the botting guild STILL has the ability to interrupt every prot and heal in the match, aswell as other defensive skills.

Artisan Archer · Jan 21, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I find it funny how you're trying to get it locked Shayne, as you are ALSO one of the people in question. You play with Yuri, in dutch we have a nice expression: "Wiens brood men eet, diens woord men spreekt", and translated it means: "Who's bread one eats, who's word one speaks".

I understand your view on this might be different, but trying to get this thread locked is only making yourself look more suspicious. (On top of that fact you're also in the botting guild, AND play with known botters)

@ Martin:

Hlarious how you say: "They ran around the map a bit, and died less, and won". Ow gee, That would work, because, you know, everyone knows interupt bots stop interrupting when you're running around the map... Aside from the fact that that made NO sense, WHAT are you trying to say here?

That if you split a interrupt bot, he stops being effective? How is that so? If anything, if you split them you're always going to need 1 healer on each side (Unless you wanna risk loosing your split), and that interrupt bot can fully shut one healer down...

And if you so ensist on splitting them, who says they can't split back proporly aswell? You're intire arguement is based on the fact the botting guild can't split for sh..t, but why does this have to be true?
You are, once again, taking flawed examples, as you ASSUME the botting guild can't split. Yet, in reality, if 2 equally matched guilds, with an equally matched build (Except for the mesmers then offcourse), the botting guild can split just as well as the non botting guild. With the different that the botting guild STILL has the ability to interrupt every prot and heal in the match, aswell as other defensive skills.

People who bot are bad, else you wouldn't need one.
Bad people can't split. Split wins.

Martin Alvito · Jan 21, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Considering the events which have RBR during the year there is almost hardly anytime to do any constructive research.

It's been claimed that the designers of the bots have a private server where they can test anything, including RBR, whenever they want.

But I agree that a bot would only be as good as its designer. You'd have to understand RBR at a very high level to be able to write a bot that can beat the fastest humans, and the Catch-22 is that if you already understand RBR at that level, you don't need the bot. Writing and debugging it would be a waste of time.

The creator of the infamous video either didn't know everything there is to know, or didn't show his entire hand.

Polgara Val · Jan 21, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

You know I fully agree with that Martin, even if they have a private server where they can test a bot fully, without the knowledge and the optimum tactics/route which only the top RBR racers know, then its just a waste of time.

I am sure some players would be intrested in using the bot to attempt a top 100 time but it wont get them anywhere.

Pol

Tullzinski · Jan 21, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

After reading about and locating that freaking program, I have to side with Killed on this. The mere presence of it taints the game(s), noone should have to adjust their playstyle to combat this. It is against the EULA and needs to go.

I wish I was smart enough about how this freaking program works and how to combat it. If I was I would make suggestions about how to kill it. ANET employs personnel that are smart about it and how it works, they should be the ones kill this thing. If there are things ANET wants us as players to do to combat this then tell me what that is, I will be first in line to help!!!

Martin Alvito · Jan 21, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Hlarious how you say: "They ran around the map a bit, and died less, and won". Ow gee, That would work, because, you know, everyone knows interupt bots stop interrupting when you're running around the map... Aside from the fact that that made NO sense, WHAT are you trying to say here?

I'm saying that I watched a team with competent players that I knew defeat a Mesmer hero with flawless interrupts a while back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

That if you split a interrupt bot, he stops being effective? How is that so?

When it's running, it ain't casting.

This gave them the ability to handle the pressure that was dished out on the rare occasions when they had to stand and fight the hero. When they did so, they were careful to make sure that they had a monk AND the runner available for heals so that people would not die to the other damage in the opponent's offensive split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And if you so ensist on splitting them, who says they can't split back proporly aswell? You're intire arguement is based on the fact the botting guild can't split for sh..t, but why does this have to be true?

I'm not making that assumption. The teams were both competent in the case I observed (top 100, 12-18 months ago). It's not that the team with the hero was stupid. It's that the opponent managed to generate credible threats that had to be defended, and as a result they were able to keep the Mesmer bot running rather than casting a large proportion of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

The mere presence of it taints the game(s), noone should have to adjust their playstyle to combat this. It is against the EULA and needs to go.

The point that's at issue isn't whether the bot and user interface cheats need to go. The point that's at issue is whether there isn't anything you can do about the bots while they're around. I think we can all agree that they make the game less fun.

What I'm saying is that if you haven't tried every possible strategy for beating the bot, it's still your own fault if you lose to it. I've seen strategies executed that solved similar problems with Mesmer interrupt heroes in GvG. I don't need to cheat to win in RBR, ditto for Snowball Arena.

If that's the case and good play still beats bots, then they're a priority issue but not a high priority one. I'd like to see a thriving meta with some variety in it that's overrun by botters more than I'd like to see a stale, boring meta that is bot free but isn't fun to play.

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

People who bot are bad

It ends there, that is a flawed statement, so whichever continues is going to be untrue aswell.

Quote:

I'm saying that I watched a team with competent players that I knew defeat a Mesmer hero with flawless interrupts a while back.

Did you really just compared a HERO to a BOT? Granted, there is so similarities, but I gues this shows HOW FEW you know of the interrupt bots out there. If you want me to name a few differences:

1) A hero is TIED to the player
2) A hero can't weapon swap, let alone swap to shields
3) A hero CAN'T MOVE ANYWHERE. (Partially 1)
4) You can't split with a hero team, for the obvious reason mentioned in 1) and 3), therefor your statement still is correct.

All you have proven is that a 8 man team can outsplit a team with heroes. Congratulations, every top GvG'er figured that out when RaO, or even discord spike, became meta.

Quote:

When it's running, it ain't casting.

When your Monks are running, they're not casting either, so why would the bot be casting in the first place? Your Warrior SHOULD be hitting shit regardless (Rush/PR wins games), not to mention Bull's, etc.
And I hurd interrupt spells take 1/4s, or even less with FC, to cast. As long as a real player controls the bot's movement, which it does, splitting against it is of no use.

You can ONLY hope you can wipe them on either side, but that means a team failed, and it could as well have been the non botting team to wipe.

This does't change the fact that IF a guild were to get immunity from Anet (Won't ban them), and that guild was allowed to bot, they would have SIGNIFICANT advantage over the other team. If you can't see this, you clearly need to GvG a bit more.

Ask any top 50 GvG team how fast they would wipe in a mAT if your prot and heal Monk got WoH, guardian and RC interrupted 24/7. Anwser will be: faster than you can say ruptbot.

Martin Alvito · Jan 21, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

When your Monks are running, they're not casting either, so why would the bot be casting in the first place? Your Warrior SHOULD be hitting shit regardless (Rush/PR wins games), not to mention Bull's, etc.

If you can reduce the pressure on the split with the Mesmer to the point where it is manageable by the defensive character that isn't getting interrupt spammed, you have solved the problem.

If you stand and fight them, that's not likely to be the case. But if you can generate credible threats via movement that require a response, you can keep them chasing you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Ask any top 50 GvG team how fast they would wipe in a mAT if your prot and heal Monk got WoH, guardian and RC interrupted 24/7. Anwser will be: faster than you can say ruptbot.

You said something that I wasn't able to find to restore, to the effect that people don't cheat in the mAT because they would get caught. If this is true, then:

- QPs are easy to come by; you don't have to play botters in ATs to play the mAT
- The mAT is clean
- You can scrimmage with other legit players bot-free to practice for the mAT

Please explain to me why you are not currently doing this if you cannot beat the bots. Is the fundamental problem that you cannot farm Champ points on the ladder?

Kattar · Jan 21, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Three minutes on the dot, Revelations.

There will be no further warnings - keep it civil. I suggest if you have any name calling to do, use the pm system.

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Please don't flame, don't want get it locked again.

@Mods, I can't stop ppl from flaming, it's not my fault.

@Martin: You don't see something wrong with what you posted? Just because these bots can't enter AT's, tough they can if they wanted to risk getting banned, doesn't mean they're any less of a problem.

If you can't see that, than I'm seriously out of arguements to convince you.

If you think bots aren't that big of a problem, because a non-physicial barriers exists that keeps 'em out of the "serious" matches, then so be it. If GvG means nothing more to you than that, I can't convince you otherwise.